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David,
First, the whole idea of trading is compounding which means reinvesting the profits. It doesn’t mean you place your whole capital into the service. Those are two different things. If you have a capital of say 100k, you might decide to allocate 50k into 10ppm. Out of 50k, you might keep say 20% in cash. So if they have 4 trades each month, you put 10k into each trade.
So your gains are calculated based on 50k allocated to 10ppm, the rest 50k is not relevant, it might be allocated to another trades. Now, if you do it every month and earn say 10% on your 40k, that’s 8% on the total capital allocated to 10ppm. But if you don’t reinvest your profits, then after a year your 50k capital becomes 100k. But you keep allocating 10k per trade, earning 10% on the 40k, so your 8% per month on the overall capital becomes only 4%. After 2 years it becomes 2%. The whole idea is to compound the gains, let them work. But the drawdown should never be more than 15-20% per month.
Look at their website under “About Us”. They give you an example “10% may not sound like a lot when it comes to trading options, but when compounded over a 12 month period, the returns are amazing!” with a table that calculates reinvested profits. BTW, this by itself is misleading since they recommend to keep at 25-50% in cash for adjustments. This recommendation is wise, but then you cannot present it as 10% per month, with 50% cash, the return is 5%.
Now imagine a poor guy that started in May 2010, even with 50% of his capital allocated to 10ppm, not the whole 100%. He just lost 35% in one month. Not pretty.
Regarding this 2008 trade – it was their recommendation to place the whole capital into this single trade. This was a directional and speculative bet, contrary to the definition of the service which is defined as market neutral trading.
Kim,
Compounding is great when INVESTING, which is a long-term position, typically not adjusted over a long period of time, such as a 401k. TRADING is more short-term and compounding is not a good idea. Trading may have more risk than any investment, and rolling the dice each time is not very smart. One should always put profits in their pocket after each trade, otherwise they let greed take over and risk losing it all. You and your friends should really consider making this change, else you may lose it all again on another TRADE.
Gains are never based on an entire account balance, just how much was required for the trade. If a $100k account invested $10k, and earned 50% on that trade, their account would now have $105k. Based on your math, that is only a 5% return?!?! Whatever amount I allocate to 10PPM is what the return is based on. Whatever amount I have in cash that is not invested does not have any effect on the return.
I have contacted 10PPM about your reference to their About Us page. The told me that it was made years ago for marketing, to show the possibility of growth in someone’s account. I informed them about how this could imply that one should compound with their service. They said that they would never suggest for anyone to compound, and that they would soon clarify this on their site.
For the May 2010 loss, 10PPM did not cut the number in half like you did for the return. As stated on their site, and properly calculated, the returns are based on the amount used for each trade. If they did your type of fancy accounting, they’d lose credibility with all of their performance numbers. They published the true return, as bad as it was, proving their credibility. I can also vouch that all of their other numbers are indeed correct. Those that joined just before this loss just had bad timing/luck.
Their 2008 trade – they did NOT recommend to “place the whole capital into this single trade”. In fact, they NEVER recommend how much to put into each trade. Maybe you are getting confused with their performance page which are just examples of how much one COULD make if they invested $20k for each trade.
I joined in the middle of ’09 so I’ve been following 10PPM trades for about 2 years now, not the few months that someone else mentioned. Adding up all the monthly results, I’m at +46.2%! Just like David G did, I left out the last monthly return of 31.7% since it wasn’t a normal trade. They did a great job of turning that month’s losing trade into a winner though! They could have closed that trade out for a loss of 20% but their trading team saw an opportunity and used the down market to our advantage. They closed out the trade the very next trading day and locked in the 31.7% profit.
I was also with them during the big loss in May 2010, and was close to cancelling. I was down nearly 30% after that hit, but stuck with them because of their previous success. After 4 months time, I was back to even and have climbed back up to over a 45% profit since then!
After that month, 10PPM replaced that trading team the caused the big loss. I can see the difference when positions get in trouble now. They constantly update us when they are about to close a losing position. There are no signs of “hope” for the market to turn around. Instead, they mention the exit point and when they’ll pull the trigger to get out. This was not evident with the old trading team and the stops the used before may not have been as firm. I like how they handle this and am very comfortable with their new team.
Kim, you’ve never been a member? hmmmmmmm…..that bugs me a little.
I agree with David G that you have to take profits on a regular basis. They trade options instead of investing in stocks so to me that means short term and that I don’t wanna “let it ride”.
I’ve been a member since the beginning of 2009 and I am pleased with the service. I could do without the losses, but that would also mean that I’d have to do away with trading options altogether.
SHOW ME THE MONEY!
Superb customer service. Emails are answered very promptly. Enjoy their view of the economy and love their trades!
Kim listed 4 bad months that they had. umm… what about the other 50+ good months?! Losses happen and any investor should expect that. One that expects perfection in the stock market is a fool. Certain events may occur that are out of one’s control, but when they exit a position, it protects my capital so I can live to fight another day. Even with those bad months, 10PPM has outperformed any mutual find I’ve ever used, as well as numerous other newsletter services. If all one does is focus on the negative, they will never see the good in anything. Seems more like someone got burned by not diversifying or over-investing, as others have suggested.
Regarding pro-trading-profits… they are horrible! I was a member with them the same time I was using 10PPM. Not one of the monthly results that PTP posted matched that of 10PPM’s. And like I said, I was using 10PPM and verified the accuracy of their results in my own account. PTP would show losses larger than what actually happened, or even gains larger than what happened. Not sure how they calculated returns, but they were all wrong. I cancelled PTP after seeing that they couldn’t even calculate simple monthly returns, basically invalidating everything on their site.
The comment about how PTP only follows profitable services is a bunch of crap. Looking at their site now, they still have non-profiting services listed on there. I have a feeling 10PPM had them removed from PTP because of their inaccurate numbers.
Stop making things up, Kim. According to your own review, you never even subscribed to 10PPM’s service. Go bad mouth a newsletter that actually deserves it. You’re probably posting for a competitor of theirs, trying to hurt their business. 10PPM should be flattered that you feel threatened by their service. Who do you work for/with? I’ll be sure to stay away from that newsletter. Actually, I’ll look up your other reviews to see if you favor a particular newsletter. That may be an interesting find.
I love these guys!! Their picks have done so well and my account has never grown so much in such a short amount of time. They answer all of my emails quickly, and I’m one of those that annoy people with the volume of questions. Very professional answers each and every time.
I tried other services but they do not measure up to the performance, attention, and professionalism that 10Percent constantly executes. These guys are the best!!
Customer service is great. They answered all of my questions. Great communication. Very professional. Trades are very profitable. A home run service!!!!!
Great trades for the price! I am able to pocket about $2000 each month with these guys! Timing is spot on with nearly every trade. If things go wrong, they have the experience to get out of a trade before it gets out of control. I used to day trade to supplement my income, but their method is FAR BETTER!!! They discovered a way to profitably trade each month with very little stress. I have recommended 3 friends to their service so far and they have been very pleased as well. 10PPM is a definite MUST HAVE!!!
Dear Duane, Kendra and Walter,
The fact that you made money in the last few months or even a year means nothing. Iron condors are by definition high probability strategy which will make money 70-80% of the months. What really matters is how you manage risk rest of the time. Losses do happen and will happen, but minimizing them is the most important thing in trading. Service that had 50% or 70% drawdown in one month, more than one time, is dangerous. Condors should be treated with respect. If you ignore this simple fact, you ignore risk. At some point it will happen again and bite you.
I will not continue arguing about that. I wish you profitable trading. Just remember my warning.
Kim,
You mention that any service that has over a 50% drawdown more than once is dangerous. By your own definition, 10PPM is NOT in this category. They had ONE loss of this magnitude in the nearly 5 years of business. Since that loss, they got rid of that trade team and implemented new teams. Those teams have performed with flying colors!
Researching your other posts for other newsletters, you seem to favor another newsletter which I won’t advertise here. Below is a quote from your own comment:
“In fact, his performance is good years is closer to 35-40%, not compounded. I think that ignoring those numbers and basing the ratings on one bad month doesn’t make justice.”
You mentioned that one should not focus on one loss when the service provides a long term profitable track record, yet you are doing just that here.
You mentioned non-compounded returns above but you kept preaching that one SHOULD compound here, basically setting one up for failure.
Your comments seemed so biased that others in that thread suspected you to be in the employ of that newsletter. You defend that newsletter but bash others that have a similar performance.
With that said, IGNORE KIM’S COMMENTS. HE APPEARS TO WORK FOR A COMPETITOR.
Based on his own admission, he wasn’t even a subscriber.
Dear Walter,
If you read my comments about the other newsletter, you would see that I cancelled my subscription due to unfavourable risk/reward. I wrote few dozen reviews and saying that I work for someone is ridiculous. Of course you can believe whatever you want. But if you want to compare, the other newsletter had one 25% loss in 6 years (and this loss was shocking for their subscribers). 10ppm had four big losses in 5 years:
Aug. 2007 – 24.5%
Jan. 2008 – 38.4%
Oct. 2008 – 31.6%
May 2010 – 69.5%
That’s one big loss per year on average. After you are down 70%, you need to be up more than 200% just to break even. Every time they have a big loss, they say that they replace the trading team and swear it will not happen again. Can you really trust them it will not happen again?
By defending a service that allows such losses just shows that you have no idea about risk management.
Kim,
You made a few dozen reviews, but know exactly which service I’m referring to even though I didn’t mention which one. You defend them as if you are defending yourself.
I like how you conveniently left out the 51% loss your service had in July. With an average return of 3% each month, it will take you 17 months to break even! After a year and a half, you’ll finally be at zero. Why are you defending such a poor service like that? Because it sounds like you have a personal interest in it.
Your service has a YTD return of -37%, while 10PPM is up over 50%!!
Losses happen and 10PPM is able to recover those losses much quicker than the year and a half it would take you.
Your statement about 10PPM saying that they replace the trading team after each big loss is a FLAT OUT LIE. They’ve only replaced their trade team once, after their May 2010 loss. To answer your question, “Yes, I can trust them to not have that type of loss again.” The new teams have performed exceptionally well, cutting losses when things went against them, and turning losing trades into winners.
Your comments are biased and favor your inferior service.
Your insistence to use all profits for each trade proves your own lack of risk management.
IGNORE KIM, EVERYONE. HE/SHE WAS NEVER A SUBSCRIBER.
ALL CLAIMS MADE BY KIM ARE FALSE.
Best service I ever used!! Timing is perfect, trades are winners, communication is great! Can’t say anything negative about these guys. AAA+++!!!!
In FAQ, they describe the strategy as “It is boring… very boring. We open each position then wait until it expires.”
This is hugely misleading. It could be very exciting (not in a good way) when you lose 70% of your account (look at May 2010). Holding to expiration is extremely risky due to negative gamma – whoever doesn’t understand it, has no clue in risk.
They trade 5 different ETFs/indicies every month which are 95% correlated – how does it increase diversification?
They recommend keeping at least 20-30% of the account in cash and not to compound, yet the performance page shows compounded results based on 100% allocation.
After reading the numerous postings by Kim, I must agree with the other reviewers in that Kim reeks of collusion with another service. Per his own admission, Kim was never a subscriber!!
I have been a subscriber to 10PPM for a long time, and Kim’s statements are completely biased and false.
10PPM’s trades are very profitable and tend to be boring, just as they stated. This month is a great example of that! The positions will be held to expiration and are at least 5% away from the underlying. Nothing to do, just wait… boring.
Sometimes the trades are closed out to limit loss, but they have also closed positions out to protect profits. The ONE loss Kim refers to was 18 months ago. Since then, 10PPM got rid of that trade team and have performed great! They understand risk and limit it very well.
The 5 positions they open each month are diverse and are opened at different times of the cycle. Just because one position loses does not mean that all of them will. A subscriber would know this but Kim has never been so he would never know.
10PPM’s performance page shows BOTH compounded and non-compounded results just to have comparison. They also show the negatives of compounding and discourage it here: compound?
Ignore Kim, he works for another newsletter.
10PPM has been great! LOW RISK, CONSISTENT RETURNS, SMART TEAM. Ignore Kim, he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Another successful month with 10 Percent. They averaged over 11% this month and it was their 5th winning month in a row! I’m up over 50% for the year!!
At first, I was skeptical about the results that 10PPM has on their site. I tried it out and have been pleasantly surprised! I had no idea that getting 10% on a monthly basis was even possible. I am so glad that I signed up with them! I work during the day and cannot do trades myself. Their autotrade feature is perfect for me! If you are skeptical, just like I was, just give them a try. You will never know for sure until you do it. You will not be disappointed!
Just like Trent, I was skeptical of their returns but became a true believer after seeing them in action. A friend of mine referred me to them and she’s been using them for years.
Before I signed up, I questioned 10PPM about their loss in May 2010 and they told me that it was a fluke, caused by the emotional attachment that the trade team developed during that month. That trade team was let go and a new team is in its place. I confirmed this with my friend who suffered through that loss, and has been with 10PPM for years.
She noticed that the communication was different that month and the trade team didn’t seem normal. She took a hit that month, but after the long record of positive results beforehand, she gave them a chance to make it back. Since then, she has noticed a marked improvement with the trades, recovered all of those losses, and is actually up for 2010 and 2011.
People learn from their mistakes and just because they had one loss does not mean they will repeat it. They’ve taken measures to not allow that to happen again. Some people, like Kim, need to realize this and move on.
In addition to the excellent trades, their communication and customer service are great! I didn’t know about credit spreads or condors but have learned a lot since being a subscriber!
Another month and another win for 10PPM! Return of over 11% this month, with no stress at all. Their timing of trades should be a model for all other services.
Kim, listen to Tony and move on. Businesses learn from mistakes and improve. I’ve been with 10PPM through their rough patch and they have definitely improved. They are a different service with their new trade teams. Stop being such a Debbie Downer! You haven’t even subscribed to them, so why are you giving any rating at all? There is a saying that you should take to heart, “It is better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you’re an idiot, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.” We all know that you’ve opened your mouth plenty of times, so…
Leave the reviews for people that have actually used the service. Your comments have no merit and lack any facts at all.
This is a very profitable service and their results do not lie. Over a 50% YTD return so far, and that’s AFTER commissions! Professional team that knows what they’re doing.
Just to clarify regarding the other service: I cancelled my subscription exactly for same reasons I don’t like 10ppm. They had 5 years without single loss till they lost 27% in Feb. 2010 and 50% in July 2011. Both services implement the same strategy: opening trades 3-4 weeks before expiration and holding till expiration. This strategy completely ignores the huge negative gamma. This is especially true for indexes like RUT and SPX that settle on Friday but stop trading on Thursday. If you don’t close those trades on Thursday before expiration, you are taking settlement risk and the loss can be up to 100%.
By definition, those are high probability trades, so they will work fine 90% of the time. The question is what happens when the trade is in trouble. With so little time to expiration, there is usually no time to adjust, and any gap will cause huge losses. This is what happened to 10ppm in May 2010 and to the other service in July 2011. It’s a result of the strategy, not a specific team. As long as they implement the same strategy, those occasional huge losses are inevitable. People who autotrade those services usually have no idea about the risks and are very surprised when one of those huge losses comes.
Professional condor traders and mentors like Dan Sheridan, Mark Sebastian or Mark Wolfinger will tell you that time to open those trades is 6-9 weeks before expiration. 3-4 weeks before expiration is time to close them, not open like 10ppm and the other service do.
Those traders will also tell you that reasonable average return on those trades is 4-6% per month. Actually such return is considered excellent. If you start making more than 10% month after month, this is a clear sign that the trades are too risky. There are no free lunches. Risk and reward are directly related.